kyma•tweaky: Share CamilleCAGAsyRelease5Discussion

Hi Christiaan! Long time no see, sorry for the delay ... I am impatient of trying the CAG5 release. In the meantime, I thought about something that could help you promoting and make people use your microsounds.

I think the learning step is very high, because there are a lot of parameters. For this, I would suggest you build classes encapsulating your microsounds so that everyone can start to use your sounds without difficulties.

CAG: You say a lot in this sentence. I will respond in steps:

learning step is very high: compared to what ... I do assume my CAG Asy users understand Kyma as it is and I know this is a lot. Who has red the whole phonebook? I know I did! Some parts I red maybe 50 times to understand it finally. Although in most of my help texts I only assume one understands the basic modules of a synth (do I really have to explain a attack and release time for instance?). For some specific modules I assume you understand DSP basics or more. They are building blocks for me too! It allows me to experiment more with DSP. Do you think I should make a more thorough description (in a word/pdf doc) of every module? This is not only a small job, but a very big job. It would take lots of time, not spend on making new interesting microsounds. For myself it would be handy for reference, sometimes I have to go back to my own written assembler to see how I exactly made it. Although for most users "exact" is most of the time not so importent, only the "how to use". Still a lot I do write down on paper in simple handwriting. Most things one just can not program without first writing it on paper.

lot of parameters: which prototype are you talking about? Harm said something simular. Just indicate for which prototype you think there are too much parameters. Maybe I can explain more using extra links in the module tables here on tweaky. I always feel some proto's could need a graphical representation what is inside. But how to make these drawings? Again also a lot of work. Where do I get the time, I do have to work for getting food on my plate every night. Also I can not sit behind the computer day in and out and I have other things I like to do too.

I would suggest you build classes encapsulating your microsounds: Oops you are really hurting me deeply with this remark! All prototypes are classes. All classes have a short or longer explaination, an icon and all parameters are described, ranges are given and most of the time I add hints in the help text. I did this all for YOU, the Kyma users! In the first release I did not made too much effort, but with the next releases I did pay more attention to good naming of parameter fields and their descriptions. I know I am not always consistent in naming convention, but that is always the case when you are inventing new stuff, in time things will get more consistent. I could well be that my explainations are still to difficult for most of the people who tried it. But without any feedback, how can I improve? What should I improve? Also your general remark here does not help me! (also not motivate me!) Make problems more specific. Name the prototype and/or parameters you do not understand. Request for an example for instance. Do you read any of such user request in any of CAG Asy release pages? ... I rest my case... or better...Give me a good question: I LOVE TO ANSWERE IT! I do love to teach, it is my job. But do not ask the impossible! Why are you, Camille, not helping me with this? ...

In the same order of idea, the demo are very interesting, but also it takes a very long time to build them. I don't even talk about understanding them. Kyma is about making music, and for this Carla and Kurt have made everything possible to make it easy and quick. Maybe a collection of sounds demonstrating the capabilities of each microsound would help everyone to have idea and send you the reviews you long for so much.

CAG: You say again a lot. I will respond in steps again:

demo are very interesting, but also it takes a very long time to build them: How long do you think it took for me to make this demo? I personally guessed (in my communication to C+K) it took me between 40 to 60 hours for the release 4 demo song! I know, your thinking, the music is not that complex. Yes, your right, but how do you make a song? I guess you do it simular as I do. You pick a sound (=preset from synth or ...), you jam a bit and if it sticks you record it into a sequencer. From there you start searching the next sound out of your personal sound library and you add something etc. etc. In making this demo it works a bit different: I need a basedrum... how to make it... freak a bit... sh.. this does not work...freak some more...and more...oke I have a basedrum...now make it in a few versions...now make it so everybody can make the recording without delay problems...finally I have ONE preset...next is the hihat...well you start understanding the idea here..... Again for who did I do this? For myself? ... fill it in yourself... sure it is for myself, but why did I make it so everybody of the Kyma users can run it?

I think you + Kurt convinced me: from now on only .mp3 demo songs. Just click-and-go, there are already two simple examples in the module table. It could also saves me a lot of time since I can never get questions about how I made stuff.

don't even talk about understanding them: Again we have a forum here, we can discuss about things here! I can not guess who does not understand what. I do understand not everything (or wurse anything) will be clear for the average users. It also took me lots and lots of time to find an interesting formula, so why should it be clear at once for anybody else. I do not expect this. I did expect questions about it.....(I start repeating myself)...where are your questions?

Kyma is about making music: This is your opinion! I personally think Kyma is not (so) easy for making music (see also next bullet). This is my personal opinion! Why would I make enhancements? I miss a lot of stuff for "easy music making". I have only used the Capy for the demo songs on tweaky and in one Remix only a single filtering synth. Making music is much easier with a Sampler/Synth and Logic. But this also leads to the question: What is music? Let us not go into that direction. Most of the time I consider the Capy a synth/sound builder and DSP lab.

Maybe a collection of sounds demonstrating the capabilities of each microsound would help everyone to have idea and send you the reviews you long for so much: I totally agree this is the way to go for release 5. Keep in mind, I am not "a preset maker". My opinion is: Kyma is all about the freedom of creating you own sounds with the help of prototypes that are provided. My examples will only help you in understanding my prototypes. For making your own interesting sound you should use your imagination. If one lacks this, you should buy a sampler and a sample library. Much cheaper then a Capybara.

I think users await practical applications of your sounds. I am sorry if that sounds awful: all the users are not impressed by complicated math and programming time, rather they appreciate feature that provide immediate feedback and reward. I say this with all my respect, and speaking as a programmer which dedicates a lot of time in polishing his work.

CAG: Again so much said in one line:

users await practical applications: What is that? For one this is a synth patch, for the other ...

I am sorry if that sounds awful: Well you are scrashing me, but do not wurry I never get mad about opions. I like a good discussion.

users are not impressed by complicated math and programming time: that was already clear to me, I only state these things to give an idea of the work I have to do for a simple feature YOU are getting for free here!

rather they appreciate feature that provide immediate feedback and reward: You confuse me here, this line says to me: none of my prototypes provide any usefull feature. This could well be the case, that always depends on what your looking fore. With this I also do not understand your positive reviews from previous releases anymore. Please explain this in more depth or better say what you mean. I like direct feedback, good or bad!

What I am missing most in Kyma is :
- a reverb different than EUVerb and what you can do with the CrossFilter?. That is already a lot, but I really can't find a reverb that satisfies me (even in AudioUnit? plugin format). I am particularly seeking for a beautiful reverb that has a nice projection and a coherent panoramic image. Listen to "Night in White Satin", you'll understand what I mean. That's for long reverbs. On the other hand, I am using a lot of very short reverbs, but as for long ones, I did not found an early ref that satisfied me. I would say that short reverbs are even more important to me than long ones.

CAG: Yes, I also like a good Reverb, but how much effort is it to make a good one, compared to just buy a Lexicon in the store? A Reverb, especially "a good" and efficient reverb is not that simple. I know the basics, but it would take me months in research for making "a good" reverb. Are you willing to pay my rent? Maybe I will consider making some basic Schroeder Diffusion verbs in future releases.

- restoration tools: I think powerful restoration tools are missing in Kyma. Look at CEDAR (which excel in this area) and Waves Restoration plugin suite, you'll see exactly what I mean. I think these tools are missing in Kyma, and that scientific, precise and good tools in this area would enhance Kyma a lot.

CAG: Hmmm, well I do not know CEDAR and I have never really used any restoration tools other than a simple noise reduction based on spectral subtraction. I personally feel the basic design of Kyma lacks a simple way of doing frame based processing (does not mean it is not possible). Kyma is more a sample based processing system. Most of the spectral processing tools and analytical tools depend on frame based processing. I miss even a simpeler analytical tool in this area: a good spectrum analyzer with dB, octave view, time averaging etc etc. For restoration stuff you need to feed me with technical details. I have no personal desire of making such a tool, but if you are really in search for something that is implementable in a sample based algorithm ... I could consider ... better yet ... motivate me why I should make this.

Please don't loose faith, you are doing a incredible work that a few people would even try to imagine. With all this nice foundation, you could be able now to build upon this and provide sounds that people will use to make music: that will be YOUR greatest reward.

CAG: I am not loosing faith. It would be a great reward that my sounds our used, but it was never my initial drive for making the assembler prototypes from scratch. "The need to know how DSP works" and "prove to myself I can create something beautifull from zero" is my initial drive. The sharing of my prototypes is due to my need to reflect my ideas to an audience. I only work efficient and feel happy with the possibility to reflect about my ideas.

The fact: it feels like "a one way street" frustrates me a bit. It must show up in my writing here. I initially hoped to get other users motivated in helping me in creating a nice sound library (you included).

It turns out people/kyma users like me to make this sound library! I believe it is because we can get so many software/sounds libraries for so little money that people do not realize the work needed for this. I feel flattered I am asked for this, but I simply lack the time to do this on my own (remember time = money and money = time).

Kind Regards, Camille

PS: any comments are welcome!

-- CamilleTroillard - 07 Mar 2007

Holy .. Camille, you really got me thinking and writing this response kept me from some sleep. Please do not STOP here!

P.S. Hopefully you have noticed that I am try-ing to improve the readability of "my" tweaky pages!

-- ChristiaanGelauff - 08 Mar 2007

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